Comments on Shuck and Jive: The Don Quixote Declaration

No, she doesn't get it. Neither does Viola. ...

2009-12-01T11:26:38.397-05:00

No, she doesn't get it.

Neither does Viola. They are completely deaf and blind to the inherent contradictions and reflexive nature of their claims.

Bigotry, hatred, and prejudice usually are. All that religious talk masking such anti-christian values...

Typical of Fundamentalist Right Wing "Christianity", but still, the unanswered question is 'why?'. Where does it come from?! Religion at the service of right wing extremism? Useful idiots? Or could it even be the progenitor of right wing extremism?

Is it Satan up to his old Trickster antics, is it just an aspect of the inherently xenophobic human mind?

Either way, left unchecked, it has been shown to cause indescribable human pain, death and destruction.

John Shuck wrote: "Welcome, Debbie! We love y...

2009-11-30T17:43:38.746-05:00

John Shuck wrote: "Welcome, Debbie! We love you. We just hate your sin."

I hope she gets that. It is powerful.

Sometimes it does take a little sarcasm, irony, parody, etc. to get through to "those people."

love,
love,
John A Wilde
Whitesboro NY + The John A Wilde Blog + “Freedom is not worth having if it does not include the freedom to make mistakes.” – Mohandas Gandhi

Well this has been a fun post. Laughter, tears, a...

2009-11-26T00:33:33.734-05:00

Well this has been a fun post. Laughter, tears, anger, politics, intrigue, controversy, and sin.

Tell your friends, Shuck and Jive is better than Desperate Housewives.

Bob wrote, "One of my big concerns for conser...

2009-11-25T20:09:25.563-05:00

Bob wrote, "One of my big concerns for conservative Christian kids is that they lie to themselves. They aren't going to have sex, not them. Even though in the back of their minds they know they had sex last Wednesday and probably will this Wednesday too."

Heh. As you may know, I'm an alum of one of the most conservative colleges in the country. A small Dutch Reformed college, Calvin College. I may be one of the few people I know who graduated from that college with his virtue intact. I was a very naive kid and was really shocked with what went on there. (Not only sex, but drugs, etc.)

Those same folks haven't spoken to me since I came out.

You're right. Kids will have sex. I believe they shouldn't. But to expect that they're going to get accurate information by osmosis is ridiculous. Some people simply can't handle the notion that there are levels of harm. Premarital sex may be harmful for kids, but abortion is certainly worse than harmful. Those sorts of choices are too tough for them so they just plug their ears and close their eyes and hope it'll all work out ok. Then they lose their minds when it doesn't. Sad, really.

Kelley:

I don't get the Obama quote. What's that about? That is, I don't understand what it has to do with what we're talking about.

You wrote, "I am astonished though to find brothers and sisters in Christ so quick to judge and name call and show not one ounce of compassion or willingness to hear a disagreement without intellectual honesty."

Ask your gay friend. I'm sure he can tell you all about brothers and sisters in Christ so quick to judge and name call and show not one ounce of compassion or willingness to hear a disagreement without intellectual honesty.

That, in a nutshell, describes Christ's church for most gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender people.

Just FYI.

Thanks Snad And two of my favorite quotes from He...

2009-11-25T18:14:11.747-05:00

Thanks Snad

And two of my favorite quotes from Heinlein are:

"I sent a lie into the air and it's still going everywhere."

And

(This is on a page with a sketch of a desert and a cows skull)

On November 20, 1842 Nothing important happened here.

Bob - You mentioned a Robert Heinlein book in th...

2009-11-25T18:08:38.384-05:00

Bob -

You mentioned a Robert Heinlein book in this post, recently. One of my favorite quotes is from Heinlein; it has been a long time since I looked at its source, so forgive me if I paraphrase slightly, but here it is:

"The only sin lies in hurting others unnecessarily. By the way, hurting yourself isn't sin - just stupid."

Happy Thanksgiving to you, Bob!

Kelley, Thank you for the scolding. Always appre...

2009-11-25T17:42:46.379-05:00

Kelley,

Thank you for the scolding. Always appreciated.

You wrote:

I hope we all will find our ways to help others in need and not be quick to jump on the first person who disagrees, particularly knowing nothing about that person.

Are you in need?

No one knows anything about you. We know nothing except that you have a handle "kelley" and you like a blog called "pure church."

For all I know you could be making it all up including your "gay" friend. I am not saying you are, just don't know.

We don't know anything more about you now than we have before.

As I recall your rhetoric was a bit harsh as well.

You wrote:

So the choice you are advocating is the choice to commit murder.

Murder.

Also, you wrote that we called you all kinds of names that we didn't.

The deal is you reveal a somewhat personal story to strangers. But no one knows you so we can't know if it is true. I am not saying it isn't, just don't know.

Because of that, we are not supposed to take issue with other things you say?

It doesn't work like that.

This is a public forum. We debate things, sometimes passionately, especially when the issues are controversial.

If you are truly in need, I suggest you find a way to get whatever it is you do need.

Making anonymous statements on a public blog is probably not going to get you what you need.

No agenda. No playbook. No horse--high or low. N...

2009-11-25T17:05:14.797-05:00

No agenda. No playbook. No horse--high or low.
No name calling.
No condemnation.
Thank you John for your apology and I accept it as being sincere. And thanks Debbie for your kindness.
I visited this sight because the 'gay' friend I referenced in one of my earlier posts sent me a tweet to check it out. He regrets doing so after reading the discourse after I voiced my stand opposing abortion. Yes, he read it along with me and he personally took no offense at my use of italics. Actually he said that's it's lame and a smoke screen when for they don't want to talk about the real issues you raised.
But, I've learned a lot from this visit to your sight and am no longer as ignorant as I was yesterday. I am astonished though to find brothers and sisters in Christ so quick to judge and name call and show not one ounce of compassion or willingness to hear a disagreement without intellectual honesty.
In the spirit of Thanksgiving I wish you all the best. And leave your blog with a couple of quotes that my same friend just sent me that he finds relevant:

"I do not support gay marriage. Marriage has religious and social connotations, and I consider marriage to be between a man and a woman."
"This is an issue that I think helps to describe who we are...[Marriage] connotes to so many people a religious and not just civil element, and that includes me."
Barack Obama (President of the United States of America)

“We acknowledge that, from conception, the fetus is a human being entitled to basic rights, including the right to life. We hold that abortion denies that right and destroys that human being. We know firsthand, from homophobia, what it is to have our rights denied...Like homophobia, abortion tries to get rid of the persons who are considered undesirable...We volunteer time and energy to pro-life pregnancy centers and pro-life agencies...” Gays Against Abortion (now known as PLAGAL)

I hope we all will find our ways to help others in need and not be quick to jump on the first person who disagrees, particularly knowing nothing about that person. A little honest reflection and discourse goes a long way in the real world.

Happy Thanksgiving.

Snad There was a very interesting article in Chri...

2009-11-25T16:56:20.977-05:00

Snad

There was a very interesting article in Christianity Today a while back. The author argued that Christians expecting their children to wait until they are out of school, have paid off their loans and bought a house to get married is ridiculous. People start having sex because their bodies tell them it's the right time. And since our culture encourages postponing marriage it's no wonder people have sex outside of marriage.

I got married at 22. I was in seminary and my wife was working. We had almost nothing. Sometimes we went to my parents because we didn't have any food and she didn't get paid until Monday. And in some ways they were the best years of our lives.

The author argued that we need to somehow recreate a culture in which families support their married children until they are able to pay to support themselves.

So this may surprise you. When working with High School kids I will encourage them to not have sex. But I make sure they know about birth control, sexually transmitted diseases and how to protect themselves if they are going to have sex. The folks at Planned Parenthood I was working with were shocked. I was just as shocked that they encouraged abstinence.

One of my big concerns for conservative Christian kids is that they lie to themselves. They aren't going to have sex, not them. Even though in the back of their minds they know they had sex last Wednesday and probably will this Wednesday too. But if they can tell themselves they don't plan to have sex then they feel minor guilt when they do. Planning to have sex would mean they were planning to sin and that would bring big guilt. This is particularly true among the girls.

So I tell them yes, intercourse outside of marriage is sin. But getting a sexually transmitted disease or pregnant is not a good way to avoid sin. In fact I tell them that under those circumstances getting pregnant is also a sin: the sin of stupidity.

Some parents tell pregnant daughters if they do...

2009-11-25T16:09:46.775-05:00
Some parents tell pregnant daughters if they don't get abortions they will be kicked out of the house.

Yes, and there are ones who will kick their child out if she become pregnant at all. I had an employee who hid her pregnancy from her father because he told her he would kill her. When the baby was stillborn (most likely due to lack of pre-natal care of the mother), she and her brother buried it in the back yard. An abortion would have been kinder, I think.

One has to ask how much of a role religion plays in these sorts of demands parents put on their children, as you say. So much of it is about how society (friends, neighbors, the church) will react "if they find out".

The church could do much to eliminate the need for abortion if it:
1) got over itself regarding birth control and sex education;
2) got over itself as judge and jury;
3) spent its resources to eliminate economic disparity instead of fighting to maintain GLBT and other minority rights disparities.

John It's not just not helping teens with bir...

2009-11-25T15:46:46.871-05:00
John

It's not just not helping teens with birth control. What I am about to say is also not just seen among evangelicals. I see it more as a middle class thing than anything else. Some parents tell pregnant daughters if they don't get abortions they will be kicked out of the house.

We parents don't always approve of what our children do (understatement of the year) but love and support in times of trouble is a parent's job. So "I will love you and accept you if you get an abortion" is one of the most horrifying parental acts I can think of. I guess we can't hurt the parent's standing in the community or slow down the daughter's trip to a top notch college.

And then there is the boyfriend who is more than happy to pay for the abortion but says he won't stay with the mother of his child unless she gets an abortion. So she gets the abortion and he abandons her.

And yes, it is just as bad to abandon a child who comes out to you.

There are times for tough love but they are for situations like the crack addicted child has stolen from the parents for the nth time(or beat up a parent for some money). Then when all else fails a child may be told not to come home.

Pregnant or gay just don't make the cut.

Bob, I would like to read what you write about th...

2009-11-25T15:23:15.263-05:00
Bob,

I would like to read what you write about that. I appreciate your comments regarding abortion.

I am glad our denomination struggles over this question because it is not one that is simply choice vs. life. The role of the state and of the church and of individual informed conscience is all part of it.

There is hypocrisy on all sides but Alan is right about those who say they are against abortion and then go out and get abortions for themselves or for their teenagers who get pregnant because no one helps them with birth control!

I see that where I live.

John My answer to that question is really really ...

2009-11-25T15:10:30.945-05:00
John

My answer to that question is really really long. I've been thinking about writing a series of blogs on the Manhattan Declaration. If I do so adoption will be near the top of my list.

I want to talk about revelation and reason first. :)

"Pro-nookie". Ha! Just another way for...

2009-11-25T12:51:56.233-05:00
"Pro-nookie". Ha! Just another way for a hypocrite to show he is pro-life?

Really, the hypocrisy is brought to the fore with this contradiction. I don't think any minority group can be said to be more "pro-life" than LGBT folks. They raise children because they really, really, really want to, and they have to go through significant trials to do so. That's pretty darned pro-life.

One of our TN state legislators introduced legislation to prevent gay couples from adopting even as he is "pro-life" (snark).

He was also pro-nookie.

After all, they're already against gay adop...

2009-11-25T12:33:00.715-05:00
After all, they're already against gay adoption, which could reduce the number of abortions of unwanted pregnancies. But being against the queers is more important than being for the lives of babies.

I have been trying (without success) to argue that these folks. Supporting marriage would support families of gay and lesbian parents to adopt unwanted children. What a great help to the unwanted pregnancy problem.

So, Bob, what do you think about that?

Well, I can say without fear of successful contrad...

2009-11-25T12:25:02.119-05:00
Well, I can say without fear of successful contradiction that my husband and I will never have an abortion.

Abortion of gay babies isn't why I oppose abortion, but it isn't a bad reason if I needed one given what hypocrites many on the right are.

If there's one thing I know for sure about the right, it's that many, many of them never mean what they say. So the fact that they say they're against abortion doesn't mean much when their rates of abortion are just as high as everyone else's in this country. Combine that with their remarkable hatred of all things gay and you've got a scary combination should some sort of prenatal test for sexual orientation one day be invented.

After all, they're already against gay adoption, which could reduce the number of abortions of unwanted pregnancies. But being against the queers is more important than being for the lives of babies.

But hey! They went to all the trouble to type their names on a web page declaration, so I guess all our problems are solved! I'm glad for all the millions of lives saved by these good people signing their names on a web form in order to, like sheep, join the rest of the crowd in order to feel like they've actually done something important and worthwhile. You know, because they could have been out there in the world actually doing ... well .... something.

Nah, spending time on this declaration which will be forgotten in a month was a *much* better idea.

*insert sarcastic clapping here*

Alan I thought of mentioning abortion of homosexu...

2009-11-25T12:04:22.348-05:00
Alan

I thought of mentioning abortion of homosexuals. I oppose abortion for that purpose too. I think some people would abort their children if they could find out of they were gay.

I wouldn't. Of course it's easy for me to say that since my wife and I are past childbearing age.

I'm also against any advanced use of genetics to prevent make sure sperm and eggs that if combined would produce homosexuals won't selected for combination.

I think such would lead us down the very short road back to death camps. It would suggest that gays and lesbians aren't really human. That was the message in Nazi Germany wasn't it?

BTW, a bit of a tanget, but since we're talkin...

2009-11-25T11:46:55.107-05:00
BTW, a bit of a tanget, but since we're talking eugenics, abortion, and gay rights, it does lead me to wonder what would happen if a prenatal test for "gayness" were discovered.

My guess: Evangelical Christians would suddenly be in favor of abortion and/or genetic manipulation in order to eliminate the "public shame of having a gay child."*

Of course that's only a guess, but it's based on 1) The polls that show anti-abortion evangelical Christians are just as pro-abortion as the rest of the population when they get knocked up, and 2) it would be in line with the opinions of one of their grand high potentates, Al Mohler, a signer of this declaration. And we know that one cannot disagree with the grand high potentates, otherwise they'll start fitting you for your very own millstone.

So if you're keeping score of the hypocrisy from people signing this declaration, we've got Carmen "The Millstone" Fowler who signs a statement which puts Scripture and human reason on an equal footing, and we've got Eugenicist Al Mohler, who signs onto a statement that is against eugenics.

http://tinyurl.com/d3q3lw

*Choice quote from Al Mohler, one of many.

Heinlein's book that dealt with the subject is...

2009-11-25T00:05:28.978-05:00
Heinlein's book that dealt with the subject is called "Friday"

"we love you, and we'll let God worry ...

2009-11-25T00:04:07.408-05:00
"we love you, and we'll let God worry about your sin"

Yeah, I like that better, too. Amendment to motion accepted and seconded.

Ready to vote?

Alan, great news! Just posted it! Bob, OK. Just...

2009-11-25T00:00:10.934-05:00
Alan, great news! Just posted it!

Bob, OK. Just finished reading Kazuo Ishiguro's Never Let Me Go which is a novel along the lines you are talking about.

John Again beyond the sphere of this post but sin...

2009-11-24T23:52:58.414-05:00
John

Again beyond the sphere of this post but since you responded to me . . .

I think we in the church need to get ahead of the scientific curve and argue that all human clones the results messing with human genetics to create different shapes or powers are all human and deserve human rights.

Claiming that human genetic manipulation can be patented and the results are possesions fills me will horror and fear. Claiming that the results of human genetic manipulation are not really human fills me with the same horror.

My greatest fear is that some parts of the Church will say that humans who are the result of human genetic manipulation are of the devil.

I started thinking about this because of the fiction of Robert Heinlein. And I don't think such manipulation is all that far down the road.

BTW, there's good news in your email box, John...

2009-11-24T23:47:42.745-05:00
BTW, there's good news in your email box, John, from the Presbytery of Detroit. We just passed Northside's overture to GA to amend G-6.0106b!

221 days to GA. Time to saddle up and get to work.

" They can't see their own hate. Instead,...

2009-11-24T23:46:01.444-05:00
" They can't see their own hate. Instead, they see hate in your love, logic, and courage. No matter what you say, it will be greeted the way it has already been greeted. It's no use saying a thing to these people because their responses are predictable, and it's not worth spending your time here."

Really? You're pulling out the "I'm rubber, you're glue" defense? Wow.

Like I said, you can call whatever you think you've got going "love" or "hate". While I find it amazing that, with your patronizing attitude you could ever justify it as "love", I don't really care. Just feel free to leave me out of it entirely. How many times do I have to say that? What is so difficult to understand about "Mind Your Own Business?"

And yet you do stop by here, Debbie, which leads one to wonder why you post if it's such a waste of time? Self-agrandizement perhaps? Or perhaps the busybodies simply can't help themselves? Perhaps it's genetic? Just because you were born a busybody Debbie, doesn't mean you have to act on it. LOL

That's OK, I would amend what John said to, "we love you, and we'll let God worry about your sin" because, when it comes to being a busybody, fusspot, tattletale and scold, I know when I'm outmatched. ;)

Comments on Shuck and Jive: The Don Quixote Declaration

No, she doesn't get it. Neither does Viola. ...

John Shuck wrote: "Welcome, Debbie! We love y...

Well this has been a fun post. Laughter, tears, a...

Bob wrote, "One of my big concerns for conser...

Thanks Snad And two of my favorite quotes from He...

Bob - You mentioned a Robert Heinlein book in th...

Kelley, Thank you for the scolding. Always appre...

No agenda. No playbook. No horse--high or low. N...

Snad There was a very interesting article in Chri...

Some parents tell pregnant daughters if they do...

John It's not just not helping teens with bir...

Bob, I would like to read what you write about th...

John My answer to that question is really really ...

"Pro-nookie". Ha! Just another way for...

One of our TN state legislators introduced legislation to prevent gay couples from adopting even as he is "pro-life" (snark).He was also pro-nookie.

After all, they're already against gay adop...

Well, I can say without fear of successful contrad...

Alan I thought of mentioning abortion of homosexu...

BTW, a bit of a tanget, but since we're talkin...

Heinlein's book that dealt with the subject is...

"we love you, and we'll let God worry ...

Alan, great news! Just posted it! Bob, OK. Just...

John Again beyond the sphere of this post but sin...

BTW, there's good news in your email box, John...

" They can't see their own hate. Instead,...

One of our TN state legislators introduced legislation to prevent gay couples from adopting even as he is "pro-life" (snark).

He was also pro-nookie.